There is a very vocal part of ml users, who are not Communist or socialist, but anti West and pro-China or pro-Russia.
Point that Chinese workers are - according to Chinese labour law and Chinese statistics - exploited and work on average more than 6 days a week, and you’ll get banned (https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/15/14/11409).
Point that soviet Russia was imperialist (or quote Mao saying that) and you will get banned.
I would ask you; have you ever listened to an MLs response to these things? I could do that if you want.
But, I think you’re confusing the moderation of an instance to maintain intelligent discourse with a conclusion of “they are denying facts”
I’ll give an analogy. If it helps.
Do you think a person posting “black crime statistics” in any “left leaning” sub would be taken seriously? Would that sub explain to every individual person the relationship of poverty, the relationship of policing black neighborhoods, the relationship of the for profit prison systems? The war on drugs, etc etc etc.
No, they would offer resources to these things. But the sub is not meant to be a place where “technically” style Ben Shapiro types are given a voice. They get banned.
Those types of people would not be welcome in any “liberal” space. They are not there to engage in conversation. They are there to say “black people are criminals”.
This is the same type of perspective that most MLs have on China or otherwise. It is not that we have a cult like view of China or other historically socialist projects.
So, yeah, maybe you got banned. But you were probably the 1000th person posting “statistics” that was never looking to hear the response.
Maybe you were. Maybe you were sincere in asking. But an ML run instance is not the place to learn that. It’s a place for discourse and criticism between people that already have a certain level of agreement in how they analyze the world (dialectical materialism being that method). At least on the level of being able to understand why the equivalent of “black on black crime” is conservative garbage.
If you got this far. I’ll gladly address what you linked. And my analogy is not 1to1. I have major criticisms of China when it comes to labor. But, we need to establish a level of understanding if you are actually interested in another persons perspective.
If not. That’s fine. But, you’re not in .ml. I am trying to have a good faith interpretation of your points. You will get that from good people from .ml OUTSIDE of .ml.
The .ml echochamber you’re arguing for, is focused on being anti-western, not being Communist, not on improving workers rights or life standard. And your post again proves that. You really shouldn’t call yourself Communists, you are not. Empty headed academics at best.
It could be not the users (I have an account on .ml) who are at fault, but the mods, but that does shape what you are allowed to think and say. And that makes all it dangerously tribal, homogenized to a point where it’s indistinguishable from USSR and China cult to an external observer.
Do you know what the worst part is? How .ml instance is moderated, how the discussions are there allowed to shape, they alienate and polarize against Communism people from EU and USA. That is literally what Operation Gladio was expected to achieve.
I don’t know what kind of communism you think there is that doesn’t oppose western imperialism, support the Chinese socialist project, or applaud the damage that Russia has done to NATO. All of these positions materially improve the condition of the global working class.
Like, what do you think communism is, if it isn’t opposition to the global system of capitalism that is destroying the world and murdering millions of people?
And also, I hope you note that my language is precise. I say “oppose western imperialism,” not “hate everything about the west.” And “support Chinese socialism,” not “China can do no wrong.” And “applaud opposition to NATO,” not “I want to suck Putin’s dick.” Marxists are concerned with the nuances and complexities of material reality, we try to avoid emotionally reactive stances that try to sort the world into good vs evil.
or applaud the damage that Russia has done to NATO
Yeah, I don’t think I want to talk to anyone who applauds any wars. And you’re literally proving my point of being anti western garbage instead of workers unite communist.
Yeah, I don’t think I want to talk to anyone who applauds any wars.
Alright so you don’t want to talk to people supporting Ukraine either, then? I figure you get mad when you watch Saving Private Ryan or Inglorious Bastards? People who speak positively of the Vietnamese in their fight against France, Japan, France and the US are right out the window? Same goes for the houthis, right? All communist guerillas, I suppose. And freedom fighters through the years.
What? Try to read what I actually wrote my guy. You dont want to applaud any wars, right? So I must assume youre not applauding Ukraine for fighting back. After all if they just didnt fight back, there wouldnt be a war. We don’t want to applaud people doing war. We don’t want to applaud war. It’s the war part, specifically, completely removed from context. Thats all that matters apparently.
I don’t think I missed your point. But we have shifted the goal post. Your comment was about very specific points related to criticism of China and labor conditions and why something like that would get you banned.
My reply attempted to be more general around those specifics. I was attempting to give you a perspective on why “stating facts” would be considered bad faith in a certain perspective. Hence the analogy I gave.
So I may have misdirected the conversation unintentionally. That wasn’t my intention.
I am not even necessarily defending .ml specifically. I don’t spend a majority of my time on that instance. You can see my post history. So, l can concede to being too defensive there. I should say I’m more defending what .ml means for ML (Marxist Leninist). I personally have mostly encountered cridge posts (usually hyperbolic) with good comment discourse there.
My intention was to explain the perspective of a literal Marxist Leninist and why the examples you gave in your original comment would be considered, in any leftist circle, a bad faith argument based on the INTENTION of them. The point of the statistics is to not ask “why are labor conditions like this” but to CONCLUDE that China is some corruption of leftism and “not real socialism”. It’s not meaningful in why it’s being brought up.
No ML is worried about addressing the labor conditions of China. But we aren’t interested in someone bringing up labor conditions in China who’s only reason to discuss is to reach a conclusion that is in favor to the narrative that is the larger problem of American Imperialism and pro capitalist propaganda.
ThirdConsul is a nationalist. So, neither, just someone that will grab Mao’s incorrect and ultraleftist take on the USSR being “social imperialist” while at the same time opposing socialism in China at all periods. ThirdConsul grabs whatever quote is meaningfully convenient, regardless of whether or not they actually agree with the underlying analysis.
There literally isn’t and you literally won’t.
But surely you must have overwhelming amounts of proof for these claims, which you can readily present, since it is so common. I mean if it is so common as you make it out to be, then it should be probable without any effort at all really.
In my general experience what happens is someone like you comes in, says some bullshit, gets challenged on it, you throw a tantrum, after about 20 comments you finally do a brief Google, whereafter you pull up a source you’ve only skimmed yourself, you then receive context to the source and this makes you even more pissy to the point you drop the act and just throw out some variation of bigotry, then you get banned. Then you think “oh wow, you get banned just for mentioning Tiananmen Square!” even though you dont. You get banned for behaving like an asshole, like you do most places.
There is a very vocal part of ml users, who are not Communist or socialist, but anti West and pro-China or pro-Russia.
Point that Chinese workers are - according to Chinese labour law and Chinese statistics - exploited and work on average more than 6 days a week, and you’ll get banned (https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/15/14/11409).
Point that soviet Russia was imperialist (or quote Mao saying that) and you will get banned.
I would ask you; have you ever listened to an MLs response to these things? I could do that if you want.
But, I think you’re confusing the moderation of an instance to maintain intelligent discourse with a conclusion of “they are denying facts”
I’ll give an analogy. If it helps.
Do you think a person posting “black crime statistics” in any “left leaning” sub would be taken seriously? Would that sub explain to every individual person the relationship of poverty, the relationship of policing black neighborhoods, the relationship of the for profit prison systems? The war on drugs, etc etc etc.
No, they would offer resources to these things. But the sub is not meant to be a place where “technically” style Ben Shapiro types are given a voice. They get banned.
Those types of people would not be welcome in any “liberal” space. They are not there to engage in conversation. They are there to say “black people are criminals”.
This is the same type of perspective that most MLs have on China or otherwise. It is not that we have a cult like view of China or other historically socialist projects.
So, yeah, maybe you got banned. But you were probably the 1000th person posting “statistics” that was never looking to hear the response.
Maybe you were. Maybe you were sincere in asking. But an ML run instance is not the place to learn that. It’s a place for discourse and criticism between people that already have a certain level of agreement in how they analyze the world (dialectical materialism being that method). At least on the level of being able to understand why the equivalent of “black on black crime” is conservative garbage.
If you got this far. I’ll gladly address what you linked. And my analogy is not 1to1. I have major criticisms of China when it comes to labor. But, we need to establish a level of understanding if you are actually interested in another persons perspective.
If not. That’s fine. But, you’re not in .ml. I am trying to have a good faith interpretation of your points. You will get that from good people from .ml OUTSIDE of .ml.
You missed my point.
The .ml echochamber you’re arguing for, is focused on being anti-western, not being Communist, not on improving workers rights or life standard. And your post again proves that. You really shouldn’t call yourself Communists, you are not. Empty headed academics at best.
It could be not the users (I have an account on .ml) who are at fault, but the mods, but that does shape what you are allowed to think and say. And that makes all it dangerously tribal, homogenized to a point where it’s indistinguishable from USSR and China cult to an external observer.
Do you know what the worst part is? How .ml instance is moderated, how the discussions are there allowed to shape, they alienate and polarize against Communism people from EU and USA. That is literally what Operation Gladio was expected to achieve.
I don’t know what kind of communism you think there is that doesn’t oppose western imperialism, support the Chinese socialist project, or applaud the damage that Russia has done to NATO. All of these positions materially improve the condition of the global working class.
Like, what do you think communism is, if it isn’t opposition to the global system of capitalism that is destroying the world and murdering millions of people?
And also, I hope you note that my language is precise. I say “oppose western imperialism,” not “hate everything about the west.” And “support Chinese socialism,” not “China can do no wrong.” And “applaud opposition to NATO,” not “I want to suck Putin’s dick.” Marxists are concerned with the nuances and complexities of material reality, we try to avoid emotionally reactive stances that try to sort the world into good vs evil.
https://spectrejournal.com/one-should-not-camouflage-capitalist-and-imperialist-china-as-socialist/
Yeah, I don’t think I want to talk to anyone who applauds any wars. And you’re literally proving my point of being anti western garbage instead of workers unite communist.
Alright so you don’t want to talk to people supporting Ukraine either, then? I figure you get mad when you watch Saving Private Ryan or Inglorious Bastards? People who speak positively of the Vietnamese in their fight against France, Japan, France and the US are right out the window? Same goes for the houthis, right? All communist guerillas, I suppose. And freedom fighters through the years.
Or you obtuse or insane? Invaders are freedom fighters now?
Next thing you’re gonna say is that Israel is right commiting the genocide? Crazy troll.
What? Try to read what I actually wrote my guy. You dont want to applaud any wars, right? So I must assume youre not applauding Ukraine for fighting back. After all if they just didnt fight back, there wouldnt be a war. We don’t want to applaud people doing war. We don’t want to applaud war. It’s the war part, specifically, completely removed from context. Thats all that matters apparently.
I don’t think I missed your point. But we have shifted the goal post. Your comment was about very specific points related to criticism of China and labor conditions and why something like that would get you banned.
My reply attempted to be more general around those specifics. I was attempting to give you a perspective on why “stating facts” would be considered bad faith in a certain perspective. Hence the analogy I gave.
So I may have misdirected the conversation unintentionally. That wasn’t my intention.
I am not even necessarily defending .ml specifically. I don’t spend a majority of my time on that instance. You can see my post history. So, l can concede to being too defensive there. I should say I’m more defending what .ml means for ML (Marxist Leninist). I personally have mostly encountered cridge posts (usually hyperbolic) with good comment discourse there.
My intention was to explain the perspective of a literal Marxist Leninist and why the examples you gave in your original comment would be considered, in any leftist circle, a bad faith argument based on the INTENTION of them. The point of the statistics is to not ask “why are labor conditions like this” but to CONCLUDE that China is some corruption of leftism and “not real socialism”. It’s not meaningful in why it’s being brought up.
No ML is worried about addressing the labor conditions of China. But we aren’t interested in someone bringing up labor conditions in China who’s only reason to discuss is to reach a conclusion that is in favor to the narrative that is the larger problem of American Imperialism and pro capitalist propaganda.
So, are you obtuse or a troll?
ThirdConsul is a nationalist. So, neither, just someone that will grab Mao’s incorrect and ultraleftist take on the USSR being “social imperialist” while at the same time opposing socialism in China at all periods. ThirdConsul grabs whatever quote is meaningfully convenient, regardless of whether or not they actually agree with the underlying analysis.
No, they just see what your community stands for.
If you aren’t like that, you really should move instances.
So the reason they can’t engage with what the other person writes is because of their preconceived notions about an instance?
This makes no sense.
There literally isn’t and you literally won’t.
But surely you must have overwhelming amounts of proof for these claims, which you can readily present, since it is so common. I mean if it is so common as you make it out to be, then it should be probable without any effort at all really.
In my general experience what happens is someone like you comes in, says some bullshit, gets challenged on it, you throw a tantrum, after about 20 comments you finally do a brief Google, whereafter you pull up a source you’ve only skimmed yourself, you then receive context to the source and this makes you even more pissy to the point you drop the act and just throw out some variation of bigotry, then you get banned. Then you think “oh wow, you get banned just for mentioning Tiananmen Square!” even though you dont. You get banned for behaving like an asshole, like you do most places.
Even the .ml comments in this comment section disprove your statement.
Odd how your response failed to have any concrete examples.
Which ones? Quote the ones that specifically argue against socialism and for Putin and neoliberal Russia as an unequivocal good.