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If your idea of a federated Twitter is a bunch of mini-Twitters that sometimes exchange indirect replies or something, then the Fediverse fulfills that purpose completely. Mission accomplished, we can all go home now.
If your idea is that the replies to every post look the same to any user, anywhere, at any time, even the thing Mastodon merged half a year ago that supposedly fetches all replies if you remember to navigate to the topmost post, and wait up to 15 minutes for your view of the thread to coalesce, falls short.
And this is why hosting Mastodon is cheap, it fundamentally cannot provide the functionality BlueSky offers. Of course, you might think that such functionality is not desirable anyway, and that’s entirely fair. But if you’re looking for the immediacy that centralized Twitter gave users, I don’t see a way for Fedi to ever provide that, whereas there is a path to BlueSky decentralization. It’s a fact that your UX is diminished if all of your followers and followeds are not on the same instance.
But in the end, I think there is space for both.
If your idea is that the replies to every post look the same to any user, anywhere, at any time
This is only true of Bluesky because everyone is using Bluesky’s infrastructure at the moment. If Bluesky ever deindexes someone and they start posting to an alternative relay, you suddenly don’t have a guarantee of a full view of a post’s replies.
Content addressing means you can make your instance pull from both their relay and the bluesky relay and trivially merge threads and views without consistency issues, so that’s solvable.
The bigger issue is all those other regular users who doesn’t, and still get confused (unless they manage to pick a client app that does it for them)
I mean, this would become less trivial the more replays go into use, where to get a full view you’d have to pull from all the relays that exist.
ActivityPub’s solution to this is just IMO better, the original post has a replies collection attached to it that acts as the authority the replies the post has. This also allows creators to eject replies from the collection. There are issues with the way fedi software currently handles fetching from these reply collections, but the missing replies thing is very solvable in ActivityPub.
Doing it this way is why small instances gets hammered when a user’s post goes viral.
And as for moderation bluesky also carries information with the top post from the post author and allows hiding replies too, etc. This gets enforced on the appview side, so the posting user’s PDS is unscathed if it goes viral.
Bluesky is built to assume a handful of big relay (remember that a relay can merge in contents of another) and a bunch of appview and a ton of PDS servers, feed generators, moderation labelers, etc.
Realistically, the relay network will likely end up voluntarily adopting a tree topology - hobbyist communities would run small relays bundling all activity from members’ PDS servers, then a larger relay in front gathers everything from a ton of smaller relays and makes it available to appviews
Doing it this way is why small instances gets hammered when a user’s post goes viral.
Setting up caching in the reverse proxy layer would alleviate this a lot of this. Like, GoToSocial only recommends to set up caching for the key and webfinger endpoints, where having it set up to cache posts and profiles for like 60 seconds (or however long the
Cache-Controlheader says, Mastodon defaults to 180s) would alleviate the strain on the server so much.There are other thing you can do, like this post explains some other things for Misskey, but the defaults should be sensible so you don’t have to be a sysadmin expert to host an instance and they’re currently not. I host 2 Lemmy instances (ukfli.uk and sappho.social) from a £5/month VPS and they’re able to handle bursts of hundreds of requests without issue.
Bluesky is built to assume a handful of big relay (remember that a relay can merge in contents of another) and a bunch of appview and a ton of PDS servers, feed generators, moderation labelers, etc.
People are already building small, non-archival relays so this assumption seems mute. It’s also important to remember that relays are an optimisation, not a core part of the protocol.
i’m so tired of these posts. okay, fediverse, you won! you are more decentralized than bluesky. maybe it’s time to create real useful and interesting content instead of reveling in your elitism?
I mean I agree… it’s kind of the constant crux isn’t it?
The IT nerds pick a protocol that’s uncontrolled, you need to select options and servers, because… well obviously that’s kind of the definition of uncontrolled.
Some big name with big VC backing makes a big platform, makes it simple as possible, no choices, no control but good defaults. Average joes all flock there, build huge communities, users happy. Obviously the bulk of the creative types, celebrities etc… that most people care about flock there.
Big corp or VCs start demanding more monetization, or political censorship, or whatever kind of enshittification they inevitably always will. Users complain, but it all continues to amplify… open communities announce “hey we’ve got our alternative here”, they say “thanks but nah that’s too complicated, and you don’t have the users that I want to see anyway”. People complain more… and either adapt and accept the enshitification as normal… or maybe another big VC backed individual or other corp opens an alternative and pulls off the impossible critical mass goal, and process repeats.
I don’t really know the solution, just know the pattern. Bluesky is IMO the new twitter… fundimentally I don’t see it as super different than the old twitter. Only way I really see everything working is if say… a corporate backed giant actually played nicely and allowed interoperability with a federated protocol that’s actually… well hostable.
It’s basically like exactly what happens out in the real world… walmart comes offers better convenience and lower prices than local competitors… local economy adapts to walmart, individual stores shut down… half of owners, etc… forced to working for walmart for garbage pay.
But…I came here just for the gloating fediverse content.
What else could there be?
ok, but, does ActivityPub have portable identity and/or content addressability yet, so that when some of those servers (which are often hobbyist-run and/or tenuously funded) inevitably cease operating their users can continue on a different server? 👀
It’s a rhetorical question, and the answer is no.
otoh, atproto’s PLC DID method is also not really decentralized… but at least the rest of their system is actually substantially more decentralized architecturally than AP is.
To anyone interested in reading a very informative in-depth discussion of this topic, I recommend the blog post How decentralized is Bluesky really? by ActivityPub co-author Christine Lemmer-Webber (followed by this and this).
Alternate history: Bluesky never happens. Instead, some company opens up a Mastodon instance as a Twitter replacement. So instead of Bluesky with 12M+ users, there’s a Mastodon instance with 12M+ users. Now what?
How do you algorithmically manipulate those 12M people with Mastodon? BTW, Bluesky has almost 40M users.
How do you algorithmically manipulate those 12M people with Mastodon?
The usual way, whatever that is. What would Mastodon do about it? How do you manipulate Bluesky?
BTW, Bluesky has almost 40M users.
It’s the number in OP, so I ran with that. The fediverse number apparently excludes Gab and Truth Social. Makes sense, since those aren’t federated with the rest, but that also shows an issue.
How do you manipulate Bluesky?
The same way you manipulate Twitter, by tweaking the algorithm.
That’s not how it works.
There are a lot of cool features from at protocol that activity pub should steal. The way users can pick their algorithm is game changing
The tradeoffs Bluesky made to achieve that means that Bluesky doesn’t have private posts. In fact, Bluesky doesn’t have private blocks.
I do enjoy how that couch fucking fascist cunt is the most blocked person.
Private posts is planned, but it’s not trivial. Mastodon can’t exactly brag about their nonintuitive technically just not broadcasted posts, where multiple implementations keep making private messages publicly discoverable due to bugs.
Wouldn’t that work more with a client or a server software than the protocol itself? The protocol shares the posts. It’s the client and the instance which chooses what the user sees.
Idk the wizardry required to make it work its just something i think would be cool
It’s doable on Mastodon but significantly more complicated.
You need crawlers to index posts across the Fediverse (and avoid getting them blocked), personalized recommendation models per user, and you need pre-emptive caching on the user’s instance for anything recommended (ideally the crawler would make a cache on behalf of each of the opted-in users’ instances, but without content addressing this is a security risk). You also need to poll for edits / deletions.
Doesn’t Mastodon already receive the posts?
On Mastodon, your instance doesn’t receive posts until somebody on your instance interacts with the account posting it (following the poster, browsing directly to the post, etc).
Feeds with recommendations requires fetching stuff in advance to not be slow and janky. Basically the feed service would need a bot account on your instance and retrieving all popular posts, given the current architecture. Having thousands of these bots across every instance do this would cause a significant performance hit on smaller Mastodon instances when one of their users posts something popular. So you need something different, like a server plugin where the bot fetches the content once and tells all participating Mastodon servers about their cached copy, so they don’t all have to hit the hosting instance. But that’s a security risk with the Mastodon design.
Wait, there are 1600 BlueSky instances to join? Are they counting people using a custom domain name as an entire instance?
I suppose PDS instances are included: https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds
OK so it sounds like there is still just the single BlueSky that is “federated” with a handful of single-user BlueSkies?
PDSes only store user data. These are full instances that can be used to browse the network. The idea is to make your account really yours. Bluesky is hosting most of them. But there are some people who do it on their own.
But bluesky controls much more important components in the network, namely the Relay and AppView.
If Bluesky decides to cut off your PDS you are pretty much alone.
Bluesky is pretty much a centralized platform like Twittler.
Zeppelin.social is 3rd party appview and you can host your own
https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l
A Full-Network Relay for $34 a Month
Add using DID:Web and you’re now fully self hosted
