I am not a tankie. I’m a person who is against people being hypocrites. What he did, was NOT freedom. What he did wasn’t for the “greater good” even though he felt that way. What he did was akin to censorship and thought control. The very things he wrote about being against.
I respect his fighting for what he believed in. Its what I believe in too. But I would rather die and go to hell than give a list of people I suspected of being the enemy to a government propaganda office. He actually did that so no, that isn’t propaganda. That’s holding someone accountable for their actions. The actions that he absolutely did do.
Although I didn’t realize about the sanitorium thing being around that time. (i looked that up and he wrote the list while he was already in a sanitorium being treated for tuberculosis. so no, his mind was ok) He was someone who talked the talk and then when it really came down to it, was in favor of thought control as long as it was the thoughts he agreed with. I hate that about his legacy and I can’t ever bring myself to agree with that action.
I love 1984 and Animal Farm though. I agree with standing up against government oppression but the thing is I think you should do that whether that government is communist or democratic.
Although I didn’t realize about the sanitorium thing being around that time. (i looked that up and he wrote the list while he was already in a sanitorium being treated for tuberculosis. so no, his mind was ok)
What a naïve and ignorant view.
Psychological distress and psychiatric illness leading to poorer quality of life were present in a significant number of TB patients.
You are right about this its a lot more involved mentally than I knew.
I originally thought you had meant that when he gave the list over they put him in a sanitorium after that. One of the people who knew him said that to and that that’s why they thought he did that.
His list was specifically for Stalinist sympathisers.
Stalinism included the creation of a one man[4][5] totalitarian police state, rapid industrialization, the theory of socialism in one country, forced collectivization of agriculture, intensification of class conflict, a cult of personality,[6][7] and subordination of the interests of foreign communist parties to those of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which Stalinism deemed the leading vanguard party of communist revolution at the time.[8]
Stalin’s regime forcibly purged society of what it saw as threats to itself and its brand of communism (so-called “enemies of the people”), which included political dissidents, non-Soviet nationalists, the bourgeoisie, better-off peasants (“kulaks”),[9] and those of the working class who demonstrated “counter-revolutionary” sympathies.[10] This resulted in mass repression of such people and their families, including mass arrests, show trials, executions, and imprisonment in forced labor camps known as gulags.[11] The most notorious examples were the Great Purge and the Dekulakization campaign. Stalinism was also marked by militant atheism, mass anti-religious persecution,[12][13] and ethnic cleansing through forced deportations.[14]
Even the page you originally cited doesn’t have much in the way of strong condemnation from his contemporaries. As I said in my previous comment, the only people truly outraged by this are tankies or those misinformed by tankie propaganda.
In 2003, Celia Kirwan (Celia Goodman) said that Orwell was quite right to do it because “the only thing that was going to happen to them was that they wouldn’t be asked to write for the Information Research Department”.[1]
The government itself never said that was the only thing that would happen. It was one of his contemporaries quotes on that page, that said that was all that would happen. Why is that persons quote holding any more weight to you than the quotes contemporaries who were against him? If this is really all in the interest of truth then let’s be truthful.
And yes I am anti communist I am aware of all that and yeah for sure I support him for what he’s done to be against it and speak out about it. I agree with you on that. And yes someone else said “well it was either that or communism in the 70s which would you have picked” and YES I would have picked the UK of course.
Know what I wouldn’t have done though? Given them names of people who’s thoughts I think they should keep tabs on.
I don’t care if they were communists or scientologists. It doesn’t matter. That was absolutely a move of thought control and suppression. And was wrong. And I don’t think its wrong to point that out about the dude. He made his own legacy and made his own actions himself.
Sure he has done a lot for leftism and I applaud that. But I HATE that he gave that list to them. Fast forward to an old lady being arrested on a street corner for speaking thought crimes and its a long line of people who did things just like he did to get it this way.
Being a snitch for the government isn’t being a freedom fighter. Its the opposite of that.
also there are several lines of contempt from his peers of that list on that wiki I linked. You said there isn’t much in the way of condemnation except from tankies but right there are SEVERAL of his contemporaries that were rightfully against it and said so. Did you not see those lines? Of course some sympathizers too. I get it. I am against communism too. But I’m not going secret police style and selling out my neighbors and shit that I suspect are sympathetic to it.
And I’m definitely not doing that and then wanting to be remembered as some hero of freedom and thought. Its kind of ridiculous that people just gloss over that he did that.
Wouldn’t it bother you if someone were to put you on a list of people to keep tabs on to the government for that belief? I understand it was a different kind of communism but still.
The disappointment of finding out he did that would be comparable to like finding out my mom was a hooker or something. Just shattered my view of him honestly.
Britain didn’t have McCarthyism. Major industries were being nationalised, the welfare state was being created with the NHS, statutory sick pay, and unemployment benefits. Communism (in the true sense of the word) and socialism were generally acceptable political viewpoints.
Colonies were being given their independence. It was an optimistic time, with government by the people, for the people.
Not the neo-liberal capitalist hellscape dominating both “labour” and conservative parties we have now.
I am not a tankie. I’m a person who is against people being hypocrites. What he did, was NOT freedom. What he did wasn’t for the “greater good” even though he felt that way. What he did was akin to censorship and thought control. The very things he wrote about being against.
I respect his fighting for what he believed in. Its what I believe in too. But I would rather die and go to hell than give a list of people I suspected of being the enemy to a government propaganda office. He actually did that so no, that isn’t propaganda. That’s holding someone accountable for their actions. The actions that he absolutely did do.
Although I didn’t realize about the sanitorium thing being around that time. (i looked that up and he wrote the list while he was already in a sanitorium being treated for tuberculosis. so no, his mind was ok) He was someone who talked the talk and then when it really came down to it, was in favor of thought control as long as it was the thoughts he agreed with. I hate that about his legacy and I can’t ever bring myself to agree with that action.
I love 1984 and Animal Farm though. I agree with standing up against government oppression but the thing is I think you should do that whether that government is communist or democratic.
I just noticed your edit.
What a naïve and ignorant view.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0019570725000873
Not to mention that if it were extrapulmonary TB then likely his kidneys were failing too, which causes severe fatigue and confusion.
If his mind were fine he would not have been in a sanatorium, but rather a hospital or hospice.
You are right about this its a lot more involved mentally than I knew.
I originally thought you had meant that when he gave the list over they put him in a sanitorium after that. One of the people who knew him said that to and that that’s why they thought he did that.
You know what Stalinism is, right?
His list was specifically for Stalinist sympathisers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalinism
Even the page you originally cited doesn’t have much in the way of strong condemnation from his contemporaries. As I said in my previous comment, the only people truly outraged by this are tankies or those misinformed by tankie propaganda.
Oh no!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwell's_list#Reactions_to_the_list
The government itself never said that was the only thing that would happen. It was one of his contemporaries quotes on that page, that said that was all that would happen. Why is that persons quote holding any more weight to you than the quotes contemporaries who were against him? If this is really all in the interest of truth then let’s be truthful.
And yes I am anti communist I am aware of all that and yeah for sure I support him for what he’s done to be against it and speak out about it. I agree with you on that. And yes someone else said “well it was either that or communism in the 70s which would you have picked” and YES I would have picked the UK of course.
Know what I wouldn’t have done though? Given them names of people who’s thoughts I think they should keep tabs on.
I don’t care if they were communists or scientologists. It doesn’t matter. That was absolutely a move of thought control and suppression. And was wrong. And I don’t think its wrong to point that out about the dude. He made his own legacy and made his own actions himself.
Sure he has done a lot for leftism and I applaud that. But I HATE that he gave that list to them. Fast forward to an old lady being arrested on a street corner for speaking thought crimes and its a long line of people who did things just like he did to get it this way.
Being a snitch for the government isn’t being a freedom fighter. Its the opposite of that.
also there are several lines of contempt from his peers of that list on that wiki I linked. You said there isn’t much in the way of condemnation except from tankies but right there are SEVERAL of his contemporaries that were rightfully against it and said so. Did you not see those lines? Of course some sympathizers too. I get it. I am against communism too. But I’m not going secret police style and selling out my neighbors and shit that I suspect are sympathetic to it.
And I’m definitely not doing that and then wanting to be remembered as some hero of freedom and thought. Its kind of ridiculous that people just gloss over that he did that.
I’m not :)
I am unashamedly a communist. Just not a Leninist, or worse a Stalinist.
Wouldn’t it bother you if someone were to put you on a list of people to keep tabs on to the government for that belief? I understand it was a different kind of communism but still.
The disappointment of finding out he did that would be comparable to like finding out my mom was a hooker or something. Just shattered my view of him honestly.
In 1940s socialist Labour Britain? No.
Especially as that’s not what the list was.
Britain didn’t have McCarthyism. Major industries were being nationalised, the welfare state was being created with the NHS, statutory sick pay, and unemployment benefits. Communism (in the true sense of the word) and socialism were generally acceptable political viewpoints.
Colonies were being given their independence. It was an optimistic time, with government by the people, for the people.
Not the neo-liberal capitalist hellscape dominating both “labour” and conservative parties we have now.