I can tell you pretty much the entire history of the NBA and I can rank each player by tiers. I have included here a note that I have saved on my phone at all times.
You probably know way more basketball history than me so i may be risking ridicule by challenging a few things.
Explanation: Lebron’s goat status is slightly over stated in a media desperation to keep the NBA hyped, IMO. Curry beat Lebron in 15 of their 22 games head to head in the finals. Lebron failed in championships way more often than not. Lebron never had that killer mentality of a tier 1. Opting to cry to refs and make any excuse for his failures. He still deserves top of tier 2, but that’s all. Also Sam Jones and Scotty pippin were extremely good players overshadowed by the greats on their teams, they belong somwhere on this list. Curry is always slightly underrated. He is undoubtedly the greatest shooter of all time, and became a good defender with excellent ball awareness after weak defense early in his career (which, IMO, plagued perception of him long after his defense was solid).
Flame my choices, I played ball, but I’m no historian.
Being from Chicago, I do agree Scottie is historically underrated. But to make it to this tier list, you have to have been the best player on a championship team. If the Bulls had won the 94 Championship without Jordan, I would have no problem putting Scottie here. But that’s not how things played out. I would put guys like Scottie, DWade, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Rick Barry, Willis Reed in a hypothetical Tier 5, which wouldn’t require you to be the undisputed best player on a championship team.
As far as Lebrons Tier 1 status…
Lebron failed in championships way more often than not.
Yeah but basketball is a team sport. Most of Lebrons teams that lost in the finals, look that their rosters. Most of them wouldn’t even sniff the second round without LeBron. The 2007 Cavs has guys like Eric Snow, Donyell Marshall, Boobie Gibson, Zydrunas Ilgauskas. And they lost to a hall of fame studded Spurs team. The fact that he lead a bunch of nobodies past a stacked Pistons team is crazy impressive.
LeBron deserves criticism for the 2011 Finals loss because they had a more talented team than the Mavs.
2014 Finals loss, this one is tough because you could make an argument that Heat should have won but I think that Spurs team is actually one of the greatest teams of all time. So to me, there’s no shame in losing to them.
2015 Cavs didn’t have Kyrie or Love. It was a bunch of guys like Dellevadova and JR Smith and Mozgov. And this Warriors team also proved to be historically great.
The 2017 Warriors are in my estimation the greatest NBA team of all time. So there’s no shame in losing to them.
2018 Cavs didn’t have Kyrie or the guy they traded him for Isaiah Thomas. And they went against basically the same 2017 Warriors team.
Here’s the thing that I think puts LeBron in tier 1 status, the 2016 Cavs pulled off the single hardest thing anyone has ever done in the history of the NBA. Come back from down 3-1 against a historically great Warriors team. MJ never did that. Kareem never did that. Even the greatest winner of all time Bill Russell.
Lastly, while Steph has had more success head to head in the finals than LeBron, Steph pretty much had the better team except for once. And I love Steph, he changed the game. Steph is the greatest shooter ever. But on pretty much every other metric by which we compare players LeBron is just better. Taller, stronger, better passer, better rebounder, better defender and outside of shooting prowess, LeBron is probably an equal level scorer.
LeBron physically is probably the ideal specimen for basketball. And he pretty much had every single tool a basketball player could ever want to have and everything in his toolkit could be considered good to great.
Nit picks aside, I think LeBron is AT WORST, the 4th best player of all time and that has to land him as tier 1 player.
Here’s the thing that I think puts LeBron in tier 1 status, the 2016 Cavs pulled off the single hardest thing anyone has ever done in the history of the NBA. Come back from down 3-1 against a historically great Warriors team. MJ never did that. Kareem never did that. Even the greatest winner of all time Bill Russell.
But I will respond to this. Jordan didn’t need to come back 3-1 in the finals because he was never in that position in the finals. Russell come back down 3-1 against Wilt Chamberlain earlier in the playoffs, the first time it was ever done. Kareem only faced that situation when he was past his prime. Still damn impressive when lebron did it and I remember at the time thinking it was career defining. Lebron was definitely the most complete player in physicality and skillset, but he was the master of none.
The thing that always impressed me about Jordan and Curry was the sheer number of times they just completely took over a game and looked like an unstoppable force of nature. Too many times to count.
I can tell you pretty much the entire history of the NBA and I can rank each player by tiers. I have included here a note that I have saved on my phone at all times.
Tier 1- Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Russell
Tier 2- Magic, Bird, Duncan, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, Steph
Tier 3- Jokic, Moses, KD, Hakeem, Isiah
Tier 4- Dirk, Giannis, Kawhi, Walton
Note: To make it onto my list, you HAVE to have been the best player on a championship team at least once.
You probably know way more basketball history than me so i may be risking ridicule by challenging a few things.
Explanation: Lebron’s goat status is slightly over stated in a media desperation to keep the NBA hyped, IMO. Curry beat Lebron in 15 of their 22 games head to head in the finals. Lebron failed in championships way more often than not. Lebron never had that killer mentality of a tier 1. Opting to cry to refs and make any excuse for his failures. He still deserves top of tier 2, but that’s all. Also Sam Jones and Scotty pippin were extremely good players overshadowed by the greats on their teams, they belong somwhere on this list. Curry is always slightly underrated. He is undoubtedly the greatest shooter of all time, and became a good defender with excellent ball awareness after weak defense early in his career (which, IMO, plagued perception of him long after his defense was solid).
Flame my choices, I played ball, but I’m no historian.
Tier 1 - Jordan, Kareem, Russell
Tier 2 - Lebron, Wilt, Curry, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe
Tier 3 - Sam Jones …
Tier 4 - … Pippen
Being from Chicago, I do agree Scottie is historically underrated. But to make it to this tier list, you have to have been the best player on a championship team. If the Bulls had won the 94 Championship without Jordan, I would have no problem putting Scottie here. But that’s not how things played out. I would put guys like Scottie, DWade, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Rick Barry, Willis Reed in a hypothetical Tier 5, which wouldn’t require you to be the undisputed best player on a championship team.
As far as Lebrons Tier 1 status…
Yeah but basketball is a team sport. Most of Lebrons teams that lost in the finals, look that their rosters. Most of them wouldn’t even sniff the second round without LeBron. The 2007 Cavs has guys like Eric Snow, Donyell Marshall, Boobie Gibson, Zydrunas Ilgauskas. And they lost to a hall of fame studded Spurs team. The fact that he lead a bunch of nobodies past a stacked Pistons team is crazy impressive.
LeBron deserves criticism for the 2011 Finals loss because they had a more talented team than the Mavs.
2014 Finals loss, this one is tough because you could make an argument that Heat should have won but I think that Spurs team is actually one of the greatest teams of all time. So to me, there’s no shame in losing to them.
2015 Cavs didn’t have Kyrie or Love. It was a bunch of guys like Dellevadova and JR Smith and Mozgov. And this Warriors team also proved to be historically great.
The 2017 Warriors are in my estimation the greatest NBA team of all time. So there’s no shame in losing to them.
2018 Cavs didn’t have Kyrie or the guy they traded him for Isaiah Thomas. And they went against basically the same 2017 Warriors team.
Here’s the thing that I think puts LeBron in tier 1 status, the 2016 Cavs pulled off the single hardest thing anyone has ever done in the history of the NBA. Come back from down 3-1 against a historically great Warriors team. MJ never did that. Kareem never did that. Even the greatest winner of all time Bill Russell.
Lastly, while Steph has had more success head to head in the finals than LeBron, Steph pretty much had the better team except for once. And I love Steph, he changed the game. Steph is the greatest shooter ever. But on pretty much every other metric by which we compare players LeBron is just better. Taller, stronger, better passer, better rebounder, better defender and outside of shooting prowess, LeBron is probably an equal level scorer.
LeBron physically is probably the ideal specimen for basketball. And he pretty much had every single tool a basketball player could ever want to have and everything in his toolkit could be considered good to great.
Nit picks aside, I think LeBron is AT WORST, the 4th best player of all time and that has to land him as tier 1 player.
Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying.
But I will respond to this. Jordan didn’t need to come back 3-1 in the finals because he was never in that position in the finals. Russell come back down 3-1 against Wilt Chamberlain earlier in the playoffs, the first time it was ever done. Kareem only faced that situation when he was past his prime. Still damn impressive when lebron did it and I remember at the time thinking it was career defining. Lebron was definitely the most complete player in physicality and skillset, but he was the master of none.
The thing that always impressed me about Jordan and Curry was the sheer number of times they just completely took over a game and looked like an unstoppable force of nature. Too many times to count.