So one particular example of this is… grants studying how flies breed.
Yep, face value, no investigation, sounds kinda silly.
But, what its actually for, is for learning how to introduce sterile bugs into populations of them that are actively spreading some kind of plague.
… Like the screwworm outbreak that is currently ravaging the southern US and central America.
Yep. Yep, we had people and stuff and systems in place to be able to handle that.
But then Trump and Elon’s DOGE boys just… wiped all of that out. And our reward from that, is a plague.
Even better if they can twist it to be something about weird sex: “why are our taxes going to a buncha eggheads studying the sex lives of bugs? Whaddareya, perverts?”
um…
Early people figured out crop rotation real fucking quick…
Because it’s literally the only way to grow any crop on the same plot of land pre industrial fertilizers
A lot of cultures just grew multiple plants in the same plot that complimented each other.
Monoculture is a huge problem, but incredibly recent on humanity’s timescale. Don’t think that we live in normal times just because these are the times we live in.
People talk about the dotcom bubble or the AI bubble, but considering humans have been at least 300,000 years as a species without any significant evolution…
Civilization is the bubble, we ain’t meant for this shit.
Crop rotation is absolutely not obvious. It needs observation and experimentations with the very basic food production ones lives depends on.
Buddy…
They weren’t idiots, it’s not hard to figure out if you grew the same crop in the same place it worked out worse than before.
Not to mention this isn’t a hypothetical, archeology exists bro
Don’t think people thousands of years ago were dumber than us, humans have been unchanged for over 300k years.
300,000 years ago ancient humans were born just as intelligent as any of us born today. And they dealt a lot more with plants, anyone that grew the same crop on the same land for multiple seasons would (and did) figure this out.
humans have been unchanged for over 300k years
This is incorrect. All populations are always changing and being selected, even if the overall variation in a population is much larger than the change over time. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_human_evolution for more details.
I never said they were dumb. But it takes a long time of observing and reasoning to get such a result. And yes, archeology shows that between alternating crops and non-use as the early version and the “modern” three-crop-rotation is a four-digit gap.
but it takes a long time of observing and reasoning to get such a result
That’s good logic, but you’re using it wrong…
You’re saying it took a long time for them to figure it out, but also that they figured it out almost immediately after the last ice age.
Now think about that…
Even if you say it took a thousand years after the last ice age, we had ~200,000 years as a species before the last ice age started, and we’ve been thru multiple.
If we figured it out right after the last ice age, why didn’t the group of humans between the last two ice ages figure it out?
The most plausible answer is that they did, and that anyone expecting to find evidence from before the last ice age even started doesn’t understand anything about archeology.
I’m not saying they had modern society, but statistically speaking they figured out agriculture because virtually every human population this cycle was able to figure it out independently real quick after the whole ice age thing blew over.
The earliest evidence we’ve found of agriculture is from no more than 15,000 years ago.
The Roman Empire appears to be the earliest evidence we have of formal crop rotation, but that doesn’t mean they were the first to do it.
Letting fields lie fallow to replenish the soil was so important to ancient cultures that it’s recorded in the Torah as instructions received directly from God.
Leviticus 25:1-7
The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a sabbath to the Lord. For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. But in the seventh year the land is to have a year of sabbath rest, a sabbath to the Lord. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards. Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest. Whatever the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you—for yourself, your male and female servants, and the hired worker and temporary resident who live among you, as well as for your livestock and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may be eaten…
The earliest evidence we’ve found of agriculture is from no more than 15,000 years ago.
Uhhh…
What evidence of agriculture do you think lasts longer than 15,000 years?
Like, most recent glacier period may have ended as recently as ~12,000 years ago, what evidence of agriculture do you think can make it thru one glacier period? Let alone the multiple that humans have lived thru as a species?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Period
Why don’t you understand that the most likely explanation is this is something we kept inventing over and over throughout 300k years?
And that glaciers are basically very slow bulldozers that erase pretty much everything.
If we want to find evidence of agriculture more than 15k-20k years ago, we need to be looking at the Sarrah desert, because that was fertile farmland back then. They weren’t hit by a glacier, but they’re on a 21k year cycle and have been for over 8 million years.
ancient cultures that it’s recorded in the Torah as instructions received directly from God.
If you think the Torah is “ancient history” you’re nowhere close to the right timescale to have this discussion…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/File:CLIMAP.jpg
I don’t know why, but that image won’t upload.
Glaciers didn’t get nearly as far as you seem to think. Sure that map just shows the last glacial maximum, but even prior to that Ice Age, they weren’t going much further north and south than what is indicated. The last time that The Earth was a snowball predates not only humanity, but, IIRC, multicellular life.
The evidence of it being invented that far back in human evolution would be very apparent in Africa, though you may have to do some scanning to find it as it would be buried by this point.
I think you may be giving ancient humans a tiny bit too much credit. Sure they weren’t stupid, and you are correct that our evolution physically seems to have slowed a lot, if not stalled, but our brains are a very different story. We really don’t know how fast the brain developed, and I suspect it wasn’t until around 12,000-15,0000 years ago that we finally stopped having a disconnected left and right brain. There’s actually a fair bit of evidence that our brain’s default setting was having the left and right hemispheres disconnected, which would explain why all our “gods” went silent worldwide around the time of the end of the bronze age. Heck that may have been a contributing factor in the collapse of the western world at the time. The Green Sahara period ending certainly didn’t help things.
Uhh…
That’s a picture of temperature changes, not glacier movement…
Up to 25% of land was covered by glacier ice sheets during the last one. And it’s not like it was a solid thing, it was a giant plow. A plow doesn’t cover the whole road at once, it moves down a road.
Just like glaciers didn’t just expand like a snowbank in a blizzard, they moved which means they stopped being where they were…
but our brains are a very different story. We really don’t know how fast the brain developed, and I suspect it wasn’t until around 12,000-15,0000 years ago that we finally stopped having a disconnected left and right brain.
You really just said “we don’t know, but we know”…
Like, even tho I personally believe the whole master/slave hemisphere thing, there’s no actual evidence that existed let alone when it stopped. We sure as shit don’t know if master/slave hemisphere was what it was always like, or if that was the unusual period bro…
The grey in that map which covers Antarctica as well as a ton of the southern oceans, as well as a significant portion of North America, and Europe shows the known glacier expansion of the last ice age. 25% doesn’t come close to Africa, there wasn’t a bulldozer in most of the world.
No, I really just said “We don’t know for sure, but I personally suspect.” Try reading comprehension, it helps. The evidence that was the norm comes from our present day toddlers, as well as people writing about it in ancient Egypt, the Hittites, the Minoans, the Mittani, ancient Greeks, and ancient Chinese people. They all had learned scholars that wrote about not being able to hear the literal voice of their gods anymore, and wondered why the gods abandoned us. I suspect that was what happens in us to this day, except it happens when we are 2-3 years old. Most people don’t remember that time, and the only reason I know it happened for me is that I told my parents, who later told me. Apparently “Other me” disappeared one day and it was very confusing.
300,000 years ago ancient humans were born just as intelligent as any of us born today.
This isn’t true, and it would have taken you very little effort to verify it before posting.
So… people that work the land know it’s obvious?
You know, like the agrarian peoples worldwide who all independently figured this out almost immediately after starting agriculture…
They’re saying no farmers could have figured this out, because only farmers could…
as if by doing stuff, you figure stuff out about that stuff.
I think critical thinking is the most endangered thing out there
It’s like Stonehendge and the Pyramids…
I forget what comedian said it, but:
If all you had was a shit ton of gold, slaves, time, and a bunch of rocks, you’d figure it out too
Definitely not.
What would you observe? You plant the wheat where you always plant it, because it is the piece of land that you cleared from trees with hard work. You notice that the plants get worse from year to year.
The first thing was that people started not to plant anything and used the field as meadow to put sheep, goats, or cows on it. Maybe just chicken, if push comes to shove. They do know that plants grow better in places where the animals fertilize the ground.
This just lead to crop alternation: one year corn, one year grass.
The relatively modern idea of rotating three different kinds of crops in a specific order came thousands(!) of years later.
You know, people that work land have cleared the plants on that place specifically, because they know their soil.
No one would waste effort testing if that’s a good patch of land.
I’m sorry, I think we come from very different places of life, we might speak the same language, but you have theoretical, untested knowledge, and I’ve been down in the dirt a few too many years.
TBF to the people contradicting you: I think some peoples (sic) stuck to slash-and-burn for way too long. Certainly in Finland: lots of forest, few people.
Maybe they even saw that other plants will grow on the abandoned fields but had no use for them. Maybe they even realized the potential for crop rotation but had no alternative crops to rotate with. Extreme poverty and the continuous need to get as much nutrition as possible from the ground might have been a factor.
And remember, the potato is a fairly recent addition.Also, any form of agriculture is civilisation.
Hum…
People turned entire regions into deserts by irrigating and picking crops wrongly.
What?!
Is that what you think happened to the Sarrah desert?
It’s on the same 21k year rotation it’s been on for 8 million years…
It’s been happening long before humans, and will keep happening long after humans.
If you mean any other desert, I honestly would love an example that’s not a couple acres fucked over by modern mono culture
Missed a perfect opportunity to use an interrobang. (‽)
You’ve clearly never heard of the dust bowl. This is exactly what happened
The dust bowl was because they tilled fields during dry seasons…
Aka sustained droughts.
They just kept tilling it, and the top soil literally just blew away.
That doesn’t have anything to do with crop rotation buddy, it just doesn’t
It’s barely tangentially related
‘Shrimp On A Treadmill’
There is no air is space therefore the datacenters will not work. Uhg man these forums are like this too. The AI hate train is trying to hold back high performance computing from processing sensor data and streaming it back to earth.
Honestly if anyone here thinks this is an exclusive or even mostly republican problem you’re just dishonest. I know you can see your peers doing this and I know you are too bitch to call them out. Fuck you.
Datacenters in space are a supremely stupid idea.
I know that this makes me fit exactly with what you were describing; indeed I’m not rejecting your premise, I just think you’ve chosen a hilariously bad example to demonstrate it.
No dude there is people all over lemmy screaming that because there is no air in space datacenters won’t work up there. That is the extent of it dude, and you let it slide. These are your peers and you let them think the reason it is won’t work is because no air.
Now for high performance computing to crunch sensor data before streaming it back to earth? That is a great idea that has existed long before AI, why would you want to hinder science because of AI hate fad? Why don’t you want scientists to have computers in space? How is this not the absolute perfect example I never said datacenters are a good idea but you inserted that over what I did say which was HPC for science in space. Like bro come I’m going to need to you apologise I can’t keep losing faith in you people like this.
Air & water is what carries most of the heat away. Putting server farms that need to stay cool in space makes 0 sense. Space isn’t necessarily “cold” like people think.
Air & water are not the only things that can cool a computer down in space. We want faster more powerful computers in space to process telescope data before streaming it back to earth because the limits are bandwidth and computing we can already send big camera sensors up there. The AI hate fad is catching strays. Some of our more amazing data is from longform surveys taken from the ground where the data is stored in, you guessed it, a datacenter.
Stop moving the goal post. To process satellite images, you need way, waaaaay, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less compute than for AI datacenters. We are not arguing about image processing for a single satellite. (Which is still jot a great idea, ideally you’d want to improve throughput instead since you still want the raw images for people to work with, just faster, no?)
No, what you were talking about were data enters for AI (no, you didn’t say AI, but that’s what everyone on Lemmy says is a bad idea in space, and you were referring to everyone on Lemmy, so, we are talking about AI data enters in space).
- putting them in space doesn’t make them faster.
- putting them in space is incredibly expensive
- cooling them in space is way harder than on earth; radiating heat away is a function of the surface area of the cooling modules, and you cannot escape that
- maintenance (remember - things fail) is way harder and astronomically expensive and slow
- and, thanks for reminding me, sending AI output to and from is subject to the same slowness as for images from telescopes
Sorry, “data-center in space” is a stupid idea. Musk yaps about it because a) he’s an idiot and b) enough investors fell for it
If I am moving the goalposts it is because I am moving them back. Nice try you anti-science asshole.
This is what I said 15 hours ago it is unedited…
The AI hate train is trying to hold back high performance computing from processing sensor data and streaming it back to earth.
You are just pathetic. You don’t get to tell me what I am talking about so you can feel better about yourself you rot.
Can you explain how you would cool computers in space?
One way is just by making something hot. It will radiate heat energy into space without convection. But I am not here trying to design a space computer I am here to piss on internet tribalism.
Space is chock full of very hot dust. The data centers wouldn’t be capable of cooling themselves. It would be nice if we used those resources to improve things, not litter the various orbital bands of The Earth, Moon, and Solar System.
Historically investing in STEM has had tremendously positive effects for most everyone.
Historically, STEM doesn’t exist for the vast majority of that time. Historically wasting resources on pet projects of egomaniacs kills a ton of people needlessly.
You don’t know what historically means but don’t worry you can just google it. And you are inserting elon musk to assault STEM that isn’t cash money of you dude, that’s a fuck you from me buddy.
Lol. You either can’t read, or assume everyone else’s motives poorly. I didn’t specify an egomanaiacle asshole, there are plenty to pick from. I have no issue with actual STEM. As a CS graduate, I do have an issue with dead-end hallucinating parrots eating trillions of dollars of resources that could have been used to feed, clothe, house, educate, and provide healthcare and a robust information network to all of humanity. Instead, around 2500 people are allowed to enact violence daily with their stupidity and egos.
You can’t read, or assume everyone else’s motives poorly
Now I would brand this as republican levels of self awareness. You know what is wrong you just said it, but then you proceed to do that exact thing.
Ad hominem. Thanks for conceding that you don’t have an argument.
… do we a have a confidentlywrong lemmy comm yet?
It’ll be funnier when it plays out at a spacex shareholders’ meeting.
Oh god, I would need popcorn for that.
This is a strawman argument.
I’ve heard and considered several real, challenging barriers to putting data centers in space, but lack of air is not among them. Yet you’ve locked onto that one reason why everyone on lemmy who expresses disapproval for the idea must be wrong dumdums who are wrong, and therefore it’s fine to just put data centers in space?
How are you going to mention strawman argument and then go on to say
and therefore it’s fine to just put data centers in space?
Do you want genuine engagement was this an error on your part or are you trying to troll or make a joke or something?
Are you not advocating for building data centers in space? But you’re frustrated by “people all over lemmy screaming that because there’s no air in space datacenters won’t work up there.”
Isn’t that the point of your OC?
Advocating for no.
You’re frustrated by “people all over lemmy screaming that because there’s no air in space datacenters won’t work up there.”
Yep.
Consider this: Do all the reasons for not putting a datacenter in space also apply to not putting a big ass telescope in space?
If you can justify putting up an expensive telescope into space than you can also justify sending some high performance computing up there to process the sensor data on site. If you want to call your cluster of computers a datacenter go for it.
If you think datacenters in space are a bad idea for AI and other services here on Earth well then you’d obviously be right but if you think it is because of no air yea we are back to square one ima call you a fuckwit.
Now if you believe most space exploration is a waste of money and is just used for weapons development that would be noble, but still it’s not a bad idea because there is no air in space. No one has used this argument just the air in space and expensive ones.
I am not advocating anything for I am just not letting your draconian tribalistic bullshit peer pressure into agreeing with dumbass shit spill over onto science without some pushback.
But nobody in this thread is making that argument. You’re being a total asshole and making personal attacks against other commenters, despite the fact that they don’t bear any responsibility for that argument.
Do all the reasons for not putting a datacenter in space also apply to not putting a big ass telescope in space?
If you can justify putting up an expensive telescope into space than you can also justify sending some high performance computing up there to process the sensor data on site.
What? No, they serve two totally different purposes and have significantly different requirements.
I am just not letting your draconian tribalistic bullshit peer pressure into agreeing with dumbass shit spill over onto science without some pushback.
Mine? Or “your” as in all of us on lemmy, which includes you? Again, nobody in this thread made that argument, nor defended it, nor defended any other commenters who did - and you’re still acting like a complete dick about it.
What? No, they serve two totally different purposes and have significantly different requirements.
We don’t have eyeglasses on space based telescope guy there is no human up there looking through the telescope and writing down what they are finding.
Mine? Or “your” as in all of us on lemmy, which includes you? Again, nobody in this thread made that argument, nor defended it, nor defended any other commenters who did - and you’re still acting like a complete dick about it.
Yes YOUR tribalistic bullshit. You lying dog that is what this whole thread has been about it isn’t my fault you didn’t realise you were assaulting real science with your tribalism.
