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That’s kind of like asking ‘when did Rogue become a rogue-like?’
Esoterica channel on YouTube has a merkavah series you may find helpful. It’s about 10 episodes so I don’t recall exactly which addresses it, though.
I grew up a fundamentalist Southern Baptist. In my late teens I started to question. One of the things that helped me drop Christianity was the thought process trying to answer: Who was the first Jew who died and went to hell because they didn’t accept Jesus as their saviour?
Because biblically, the Jews were the Chosen People, right? So if you were Jewish, you went to heaven. But according to Christians, you have to accept Jesus now.
So when did that happen, exactly? When was it that the last Jew died and went to heaven, and the next Jew died and went to hell?
wait. if jesus is a christian is god a jew?
Actually yes, the Old Testament is basically the Torah or “the Jew book”.
Unless he became one long after he died, never.
He wasn’t, there was no such thing at the time and he refers to himself as a Jew in the bible. Christianity wasn’t named until after.
He didn’t. Up until the time of Paul (decades after the Jdog’s death), Christianity was a Jewish sect seeking to become mainstream Judaism. It was only then that early Christians shed their Jewish identity.
That’s in the story, but in the History, Christianity arose from Greece and Rome, not Judea. It was never a Semitic religion. Instead borrowing elements of that combined with Paganism.
Either way, a Historic Jesus would have died a Jew. The mythological Jesus may do whatever and I’m aware of Christians who’ll deny he was ever a Jew.
Christianity is not combined with paganism at all
If you’re ignorant, it’s trivial to research this issue. Google “pagan origins of easter” and find a source you like. There will be shit tons of options.
If you’re being willfully ignorant, you deserve nothing but ridicule.
I have researched this issue. “The pagan origins of Easter” is a common myth (often there are several variants of this myth) which has been debunked.
So. Willfully ignorant it is.
No, it’s you lot with the trendy new-atheist dogma of “Christianity actually just copied xyz” which has been thoroughly debunked by scholars. It’s just a myth that secular society repeats without questioning at this point. I literally posted a link to an article debunking it. That’s not wilful ignorance. I used to believe that these holidays were pagan too, until I actually researched it.
Both Christmas and Easter were appropriated pagan holidays.
No no, it’s just a coincidence that Christians celebrate the birth of the Son at the winter solstice, and the resurrection of the Son at the spring equinox. You can tell they’re not pagan festivals by all the mistletoe, Yule logs, horny bunnys and eggs.
Reserection is tied to passover, which in turn is tied to the spring equinox. Bunnies and many of the other things done then have pagan roots, but the date has a real meaning anyway.
This is factually untrue.
Look up the history of Christmas and Saturnalia. There is no mention of when Jesus was born in biblical text. December 25th is completely random. What’s not random: December 25th is the winter solstice according to the Roman calendar.
There are more examples of traditions that overlap with Pagan celebrations and don’t really have a connection to Christianity.
The 25th of December is not completely random.
The reason lies within Jewish superstition - that a prophet/holy man died on the anniversary of their conception. Someone, likely a century later, reckoned that Jesus died on the 25th of March (we reckon now that it was actually the 3rd of April) so this became the Feast of the Annunciation (conception). So a cycle was created where the day of the death happened on the same as the conception. Another factor is this was also traditionally believed to be the date of the world’s creation.
In fact, in the UK it was this date that was used to demarcate new years. So traditionally many people still commence and terminate land contracts on “Lady day” (the 25th of March) and the tax year begins on the 6th of April (today) which is the 25th of March on the Julian Calendar.
So simply add 9 months - you have the 25th of December.
Saturnalia ended before Christmas. The only “evidence” we have of Christmas potentially being a spin on Sol Invictus is from the Chronography of 354 which states that the 25th of December is both the date of Christmas and Sol Invictus… So it’s also likely that Sol Invictus was actually copying Christmas, not the other way around. In fact, more likely, as that is over one hundred years after Sextus Julius Africanus recorded the 25th of March as the date of Jesus’ conception.
It’s absolutely, unequivocally not.
Ēostre ([ˈeːostre])[1][2][3] is an Anglo-Saxon goddess mentioned by Bede in his 8th century work The Reckoning of Time. He wrote that pagan Anglo-Saxons had held feasts in her honour during the month named after her: Ēosturmōnaþ (April), and that this became the English name for the Paschal season: Easter.
Whatever fictional character you ascribe it to, the fact is that the modern Christian festival of Easter partly replaced, and is named after, an earlier pagan festival.
None of this makes it Pagan. That’s like saying the 4th of July originates in Julius Caesar. Might as well have just stopped at Christians having “Sunday Services”. Go after Muslims too having “Friday Prayers”. The Pagans had a celebration in Spring - so what? If China gets Christianised, are you going to claim that Easter actually had it’s origins in the Qingming festival because it has similar dates? Sure, for some former-pagans, their old feast days would have been replaced with Christian ones. Same way how Muslims who convert to Christianity would replace their fasting season from Ramadan to that of Lent and Eid with Easter. Doesn’t mean Lent and Easter would have Islamic origins either.
It’s not.
They most certainly did: What do you think Easter is? Why do you think Christmas is in December when Jesus was not born during the winter? Many native pagan holidays were basically transformed into the modern Christian holidays you know today. They did this to help convert pagans. In Catholicism, the saints were originally used as a sort of proxy for the old pantheons too.
Easter in Greek and Latin (the language of the first Christians) is Pascha. It’s around the same time as the Passover. That’s why it changes every year due to the lunisolar calendar. It’s just using the old Jewish calendar. The earliest record of Easter being celebrated is from the time when pagans were the ones persecuting Christians.
We don’t know for certain that Jesus wasn’t born in December.
The reason lies within Jewish superstition - that a prophet/holy man died on the anniversary of their conception. Someone, likely a century later, reckoned that Jesus died on the 25th of March (we reckon now that it was actually the 3rd of April) so this became the Feast of the Annunciation (conception). So a cycle was created where the day of the death happened on the same as the conception. Another factor is this was also traditionally believed to be the date of the world’s creation.
In fact, in the UK it was this date that was used to demarcate new years. So traditionally many people still commence and terminate land contracts on “Lady day” (the 25th of March) and the tax year begins on the 6th of April (today) which is the 25th of March on the Julian Calendar.
So simply add 9 months - you have the 25th of December.
As for the saints - most saints commenorated in Christianity are generally Biblical figures or early Christians such as St Patrick or St Nicholas
You can try to retcon it all you want. All this stuff existed way before the Christians came along and appropriated it.
What stuff? There’s no evidence of Sol Invictus existing before Christianity. The earliest record of the Ostara cult (which was only really an English thing) was 600 years after Christians were recorded celebrating Pascha(Easter) in Greece.
So Sunday is going to be the holy day, and December 25th is going to be a festival, are you sure that there wasn’t any plagiarism going on? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus
I think plagiarism was happening. Because the earliest record of the belief of Jesus’ conception being on the 25th of March from Sextus Julius Africanus predates the Chronography of 354 which is the earliest date of Sol Invictus being on the 25th of December, which interestingly enough also records this being Jesus’ date of birth. If I had to accuse anyone of plagiarism, it would have to be the Pagans.
In addition, Sunday being celebrated as a Christian Holy Day is recorded in the writings of St Luke which also predates Sol Invictus by a few centuries.
Ever heard of Baal or Osiris?
Don’t see how either have anything to do with Jesus
Now you have something to research
Okay. Found this.
https://historyforatheists.com/2017/04/easter-ishtar-eostre-and-eggs/
Osiris is mentioned once in passing. Baal twice for a moment. Not what I was referencing but keep at it
Which sects? Some of them are very combined. Some of them are not. The puritans refused to celebrate Christmas because of the paganism influences.
There aren’t any pagan influences on Christmas, however it was a common myth floating about
Then why is it in December, when Jesus wasn’t born?
We don’t know for certain that Jesus wasn’t born in December.
The reason lies within Jewish superstition - that a prophet/holy man died on the anniversary of their conception. Someone, likely a century later, reckoned that Jesus died on the 25th of March (we reckon now that it was actually the 3rd of April) so this became the Feast of the Annunciation (conception). So a cycle was created where the day of the death happened on the same as the conception. Another factor is this was also traditionally believed to be the date of the world’s creation.
In fact, in the UK it was this date that was used to demarcate new years. So traditionally many people still commence and terminate land contracts on “Lady day” (the 25th of March) and the tax year begins on the 6th of April (today) which is the 25th of March on the Julian Calendar.
So simply add 9 months - you have the 25th of December.
When he read a self help book that said you have to believe in yourself. Guess he took it too far. :)
he’s not a christian yet, but i’m pretty sure i’ll be able to convince him before the end of this year
Never - he was a Jewish prophet. Christianity was invented by Paulus.
Why did a jewish prophet become the spokesperson for a different religion?
Because his followers created the religion based off of his teachings. After he died.
He wasn’t a very good jewish prophet if his teachings made people not want to be jewish.
I think you need to understand that nobody here is provoked by this and people are genuinely trying to help you understand what you are asking about. Because you come off as attempting to be an edgy troll and failing miserably.
Arguably they didn’t. The modern trappings of Christianity were invented out of the whole cloth from Paul of Tarsus, when he had a “vision” of Jesus conveniently not seen by anyone else purportedly while he was traveling on the road to Damascus. Notably, all of this went down some decades after big J’s death.
It was Paul who discarded the bulk of the Jewish stuff, either out of desire to make it more palatable to his Roman peers or, possibly, simply because he was a raving nut. Paul was a self-described persecutor of the existing Christians, so he would have been in a pretty good position to know what their beliefs were to use as a starting point.
Paul hated christians so he invented christianity?
As he told it, Paul hated Christians and then had a vision of Jesus who told him off about it, and then he had a big change of heart and invented (modern) Christianity.
That’s wild I’m just reading the wiki link you provided.
Mohammed did the same thing. It’s how many religions branch off.
Wait could you explain that one more?
I read his biography before and explicitly remember him becoming a Muslim at 40.
Before that he was either hanif or agnostic depending on sources but I don’t remember him following Judaism.
I’m gonna send you to Religion for Breakfast and Useful Charts on YouTube. I don’t remember this well enough offhand
Mohammad was a jew?
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all are abrahemitic religions and share the same roots, so pretty much, yes
Although I’m not that versed with the story of Mohammed
Edit: basically Islam and Christianity developed out of Judaism, but they differ in who they see as the promised Messiah
Not really. He was a prince in a branch of Judaism that often lists Jesus as a prophet. Kinda. You’re gonna have to hit Wikipedia or YouTube. Religion for breakfast maybe?
I don’t think so, but Islam was heavily influenced by Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Sabianism back in the day if they meant that.
Sabianism is interesting, because I’ve read (don’t recall the source, sorry!) that they had a chance to convert to Islam or die, so they became “technically” Muslim, without really being Muslim. I don’t really know though, but if you can toss me any educational links about it, I’d really appreciate it.
It was convenient. Him being already dead, he couldn’t get in the way.
He didn’t. He is still the Jewish prophet for the Jewish cult offshoot that was then a branch of Judaism and is now called Christianity. Original christians are really Jews with some extra lore on top. But people are people and people are tribal and they need someone band against together, so now we have a plethora of different abrahamic religions that are all pissy and nasty against each other.
When did Metallica become Metallica fans?
They probably were fans of themselves at some point. Why crank out decades of albums you can’t stand.
That being said, I think even Metallica quit being Metallica fans at some point before St. Anger
Posthumously.
I never picked up on his humor in the bible.
I thought the Bible really nailed his sense of humor.
Don’t joke about that. You’ll make the Christians cross.
The bible was based off The Life of Brian though
At the moment of conception when the roman soldier raped her I guess.
The same time God became Jewish
This raises an interesting question. If god is omnipotent, could he give himself a bris? Or is the end of his dick not all-powerful?
Depends on how you define “Christian”. If you mean called himself Christian and recognized it as a distinct, and separate religion from Judaism, then never.
If you define it simply as “someone who believes Jesus was the Messiah and died for our sins” well then he was always Christian.
Depends on how you define “Christian”.
this is the only correct reply to any question about “christian” beliefs, opinions, actions, or values at any point in history. funny how you’ll get wildly contradictory responses to a single question about morality from different people in the same congregation at the same church, yet they’re all waving around the exact same bronze age book of tall tales as “proof” of everything
