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I see alot of people claiming that the third comment identifies an “appeal to nature” fallacy. Imo, she is forming a tautology and commiting a “begging the question” fallacy to confuse the kid, roughly along the lines of “the hair is supposed to be there because that is where it normally grows”. She demonstrates no intention of proving that body hair is good because it is natural.
The hair doesn’t harm or otherwise negatively impact the organism’s survival rate. The organism’s immune system didn’t evolve to prevent and kill hair cells as they arise.
He is not a local man, he is a dinogator. As such, he is unfamiliar with the concept of hair. Cut him some slack!
okay but the local man did make a smart argument by identifying the Appeal to Nature fallacy
Doesn’t evolution highlight thst the hair being there means it WAS/IS useful or wanted? I’m pretty sure those hairs act as a germ net or something, or maybe it’s just because that part of the body is best kept warm.
No, evolution allows for vestigial parts all the time. And sometimes random mutations happen and doesn’t make much of a difference so it doesn’t get selected out and now there’s just something there for no reason that never had a purpose.
I’m pretty sure those hairs act as a germ net or something, or maybe it’s just because that part of the body is best kept warm.
The biggest argument against that is the fact that humans have lost most of their body hair anyway and still managed to thrive. Not that it makes leg hair bad, but we clearly don’t need it to survive.
I mean not necessarily appeal to nature because the woman does not try to prove that body hair on women are inherently good. She just points out that “not supposed to be there” is as meaningless as saying “your head shouldn’t be on your shoulders”. The rest is personal choice (that is if you can disregard the immense societal pressure).
No it was definitely an appeal to nature, “if it isn’t supposed to be there, why is it there?” is asserting that it’s supposed to be there because it naturally grew there. It has nothing to do with the inherent goodness of women, appeal to nature is a logical fallacy where you assert something is good or just because it is natural, e.g. “clothing is bad because we were born naked.”
Doing a fallacy doesn’t mean she’s wrong (that would be the fallacy fallacy, of course), it just means her reasoning is wrong (plenty of bad or unwanted things are natural).
where you assert something is good
She is not trying to prove hair leg is good or healthy because they are natural. If anything I would say she is doing a bit of tautology because her argument is along the lines of “they are supposed to be there because there is where they normally are”
It has nothing to do with the inherent goodness of women,
What I said had nothing to do with inherent goodness of women. My argument is that she is not trying to state body hair is inherently good and beneficial because of their naturality.
If it was appeal to nature, would expect something along the lines of “Why do they naturally grow there if it wasn’t good for women”
She is not trying to prove hair leg is good or healthy
She doesn’t need to be proving that leg hair is good or healthy to do a logical fallacy, she is defending that it is right for it to exist (as opposed to it being wrong for hair to be there).
If anything I would say she is doing a bit of tautology because her argument is along the lines of “they are supposed to be there because there is where they normally are”
I don’t think that is accurate. She’s saying they are supposed to be there because they grow there, that’s not saying the same thing twice, she is justifying its existence through an appeal to the natural order of it growing there.
She doesn’t need to be proving that leg hair is good or healthy to do a logical fallacy
She does need to be doing that if you want the logical fallacy to be “appeal to nature fallacy”.
that’s not saying the same thing twice
Tatutology is when two seemingly different statements carry the same information. The two different statements in “They are supposed to be there because that is where they naturally are” don’t actually say anything much different. If “naturally” was to be replaced with “normally”, then it would be a complete tautology but I only said a bit of tautology because “naturally” contains more information than “supposed to”. But the whole point of my argument is that I think she is using naturally in lieu of “normally” rather than as a precursor for healthy or good.
buddy I think you are really missing the point, let me copy and paste from Wikipedia:
An appeal to nature is a rhetorical technique for presenting and proposing the argument that “a thing is good because it is ‘natural’, or bad because it is ‘unnatural’ or ‘synthetic’.”[1] In debate and discussion, an appeal-to-nature argument can be considered to be a bad argument, because the implicit primary premise “What is natural is good” has no factual meaning beyond rhetoric in some or most contexts.
But the whole point of my argument is that I think she is using naturally in lieu of “normally” rather than as a precursor for healthy or good.
It doesn’t matter if she says “normally” or “naturally,” or if she never says “good” or “healthy;” by using the natural (or normal, or typical, or whatever word you want to use) state of the human body as reason for why it should be there, that is an appeal to nature.
Wikipedia even has a section about natural/normal:
In some contexts, the use of the terms of “nature” and “natural” can be vague, leading to unintended associations with other concepts. The word “natural” can also be a loaded term – much like the word “normal”, in some contexts, it can carry an implicit value judgment. An appeal to nature would thus beg the question, because the conclusion is entailed by the premise.[2]
And in that context, begging the question refers to the actual fallacy, which is:
begging the question or assuming the conclusion (Latin: petītiō principiī) is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument’s premises assume the truth of the conclusion
Is that what you mean by tautology?
I don’t understand how the fact she never said “body hair is good” does not matter when the very definition of “appeal to nature” requires it: “a thing is good because it is ‘natural’”.
I think tautology can be a form of begging the question if it is used as a means of proving a statement. Nevertheless I agree calling it a begging the question is better because that is the actual fallacy I was trying to get at.
I agree, obviously. With modern soap, hair is all but useless, and we should all be bald and glossy, the way nature attempts to deny us.
Id argue the otherwise.
Based on the hair being unhygienic point of view.
With modern soap and washing capabilities, it’s rather easy to keep oneself clean, even with long hair. So shaving everything off serves no purpose, just extra work for no benefit.
There is a difference between what was evolutionarily advantageous in the last 150k years and what we prefer today. More at nine.
The argument ‘why is it there then?’ is still flawed, even if you are sHoCkEd by an argument by comparison.
Yeah, the third post is “Local Tumblr User Doesn’t Understand Reductio ad Absurdum; More at 11.”
The user isn’t saying leg hair is like cancer (like fucking obviously; how disingenuous would you be to even suggest that?). They’re saying the argument of “it wouldn’t grow there if it wasn’t supposed to” is completely stupid – that it has little discriminative power to distinguish what’s good and bad if you don’t already know. It isn’t even nearly limited to the absurdity of that contradictory example:
“Sorry, honey, but the dick cheese wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t supposed to.”
It’s a fine-ish retort to get a seven-year-old to chill out, but it’s total bullshit when you don’t already know leg hair on women is fine. Pointing out that “Gravity is real because most people think it is” is a bad argument by saying “Germs didn’t exist because most people thought they didn’t” doesn’t mean I’m trying to say believing gravity is like disbelieving germ theory; I’m pointing out the argument doesn’t hold water regardless of what the fallacy (in the OP’s case, a pretty clear appeal to nature) was supporting.
TL;DR: Denying the means, not the conclusion.
Ok, but as long as the hair isn’t actually doing anything then what’s the problem? Cancer kills you and dick cheese is fucking nasty as hell(especially in the context of expexting someone to allow it into their body). Excessive, unwashed body hair that is producing an odor is nasty because it affects other people and cannot be easily ignored, but someone saying “that’s gross because now I don’t find you attractive” does not deserve any more of an answer than “go fuck yourself.” That kid’s question got a better answer than it warranted.
You write a lot for someone who doesn’t understand communication.
then what’s the problem?
You write a lot for someone who doesn’t understand communication. [200 words btw did I time travel back to fucking 4th grade?]
The fact you read that and couldn’t even grasp that there fucking is no problem with leg hair and I’m not saying there is one and I even directly said “leg hair on women is fine” is just *chef’s kiss*. You missed the excruciatingly obvious point of the entire comment – for which apparently even “a lot” of unambiguous clarification wasn’t enough. Fucking Mordecai’d that shit.
Who exactly doesn’t understand communication here? The one who thinks 200 words is “a lot” of writing?
I think the motivation for the second comment in the screenshot is what is really in contention here. Personally, I read the second comment as an assertion that, similar to tumors, women are not supposed to have body hair even if it grows on them.
Now that doesn’t mean I think you’re incorrect. Just the other commenter was picking up on something else in the post.
You’re perceived intention should be irrelevant during an argument. Either expose the belief directly so it can be engaged with honestly, or focus on the logic of the argument being made. It is entirely possible to be both correct in your argument and incorrect in the foundational belief. But engaging with a factually correct argument with the assumption that it was borne from a place of ignorance just makes YOU less capable of being reasonable.
The first poster made a claim, and assigned faulty logic as justification.
The second poster pointed out the flaw in this logic.
The third poster ignored the logic argument entirely and resorted to an appeal to outrage rather than the structure of the argument itself.
Personal experience, beliefs, gender, identity. All of these points are entirely irrelevant to the argument at hand. The title of this post was about logic. The second commenter pointed out a legitimate logical error, and the third commenter exposed themselves at appealing to indignation and dressing it up as an argument. You (royal you) shouldn’t support bad reasoning just because it agrees with you.
It’s not impossible that they are, but given there’s a perfectly logical and highly plausible explanation that they’re making an entirely cogent point (because the argument is severely flawed, and they point out the flaw accurately), I choose to not just assume that they’re a shitty person who thinks women are icky and need to shave their legs or they’re gross – like the third comment from “geekandmisandry” (really self-reporting the bias there) does instead of just… asking them to clarify.
The majority of men do expect and prefer that women are shaved, thus the assumption.
The majority of men do expect and prefer that women are shaved, thus the assumption.
You know, I wasn’t going to call it out in my original comment because it was beside the overall point, but “geeksandmisandry” and now you are interestingly assuming the gender of an anonymous user with a default pfp and the gender-neutral username “dinogatrr”.
I don’t think even if they were a man that this would be a good reason to assume they’re a shitty person (especially because the sample of “men on Tumblr” is going to be vastly different than “men overall” or even “men on social media overall”). But it is an interesting assumption on top of an assumption: they’re a man, and they’re a shitty person who thinks women’s legs are naturally icky.
It’s perfectly understandable if you have any nuance. “Why does it grow there [as a design aspect of your body]”
The more accurate question being asked is “Why is body hair supposed to grow on men, but not on women?”
It is?
Ask 100 women what they think of facial hair on men.
Surely you need to be living in a cave to not see the asymmetry there though. On men facial hair is unattractive for half of women and very attractive for other (making up the stats). On women leg hair is perceived as unattractive for all but most people.
The results indicated that the women found men with light stubble most attractive; these men were preferred as both short- and long-term partners. However, the women perceived male faces with full beards as the most masculine, aggressive, and socially mature; the women also thought these men looked older. Men’s faces with light beards were considered the most dominant.
Research by Dixson and Brooks (2013) used similar procedures and recorded judgments by both men and women on the faces of men with varying degrees of facial hair. As in the first study, women found stubble on men most attractive, (In this study, the stubble was heavier.) Nevertheless, women rated men with full beards as the highest for perceived parenting ability and healthiness. Overall, as facial hair increased, women’s ratings of masculinity increased, too—particularly for women who reported being at the fertile phase of their menstrual cycle. Men had similar judgments of facial hair, except that they found full beards as appealing as heavy stubble. Men also noted a greater perception of masculinity as facial hair increased.
Overall, these ratings suggest that an intermediate level of facial stubble is more attractive for a sex partner, while a fuller beard is perceived as indicative of someone with good fathering ability and more investment in offspring.
Heyyyy turns out when you ask 100 women what they think of facial hair on men, they overwhelmingly prefer it.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201607/do-women-prefer-men-with-beards
Actually the study says they prefer light stubble, which is impossible to have without shaving unless you’re 15. For that matter, how many women do you think would like a man with a beard or pubic hair that had NEVER been shaved? So women expect men to trim and groom their body hair at the very least, which is just as unnatural as shaving your legs.
without shaving
Trimmed, not shaved. Unless you are into women that are into prepubescent boys, you can get away with trimming once a week.
So women expect men to trim and groom their body hair at the very least
That’s not my experience. Ironically, the only negative response I got about body hair, was when I shaved it.
ZZ Top wasted a lot of money on dressing sharp when it was the beards all along.
But not a lot on sunglasses.
Hahahaha
Interesting, and I’m frankly surprised by it.
Still, there are women who don’t prefer it, which makes the point.
Men and women have preferences, we can choose to accommodate that as we (as individuals) wish.
No one holds a gun to anyone’s head and says “shave or else”.
Fuck, what man is going to know it a woman shaves her legs unless he’s intimate with her anyway?
You’ve never seen a woman’s bare legs in public before?
Fuck, what man is going to know it a woman shaves her legs unless he’s intimate with her anyway?
Do you live in Saudi Arabia or are you legally blind? Shorts exist.
Unless the hairs are really thick and dark, outside of the average, those aren’t that noticable or at least it requires active focusing to look for those.
Basically randomly walking on the street or just doing basic daily tasks and the difference is unnoticeable.
Ask 100 men what they think of hairy legs on women.
There’s a reason that there is a skirt mentioned as being worn by the babysitter in the story.
Please don’t sit here and pretend that the body hair standard for women and men in western society is at all similar.
As the 100th man, the more hair on people the better.
As the [excluded statical anomaly], it makes no difference.
Your feelings are valid, I just don’t get to bust this one out too often. Couldn’t pass it up.
If only your opinion was the majority!
Found the furry.
Why isn’t it?
It’s up to you to choose what you want. If a man doesn’t shave and a woman doesn’t find that attractive… You do the math.
Hell, again, a man won’t know a woman doesn’t shave her legs unless he’s intimate with her anyway.
And then it’s between them. It’s none of our concern.
a man won’t know a woman doesn’t shave her legs unless he’s intimate with her
What’s the opposite of observant? Because whatever that is, you are.
Trust, there’s a lot of people every day that see my body hair and I’m not being intimate with them.
a man won’t know a woman doesn’t shave her legs unless he’s intimate with her anyway.
… are you maybe teensy weensy stoned right now? Baked like a potato? Lit like a Christmas tree? Toasted? Zooted? Zonked? Roasted? Lil bit stoney baloney?
Were you aware that the face and legs are two separate parts of the body?
Really? I had no fucking idea.
The point that you completely glossed over is that women have preferences, some like facial hair some don’t.
So men have or don’t shave their faces accordingly (or according to what they prefer).
That’s all. Go ahead and get up on your cross now because women shave because men somehow make them.
If some unknown man can make you do something, you have a problem.
The point that you completely glossed over is that women have preferences, some like facial hair some don’t.
We’re talking about society treating leg hair on women as abnormal. If you want to see if there’s a societal double standard there then you need to ask how society looks at men’s legs, not their faces.
So men have or don’t shave their faces accordingly
If some unknown man can make you do something, you have a problem
lol?
Oh silly us, it’s actually women’s fault that the patriarchy forces societal standards on women.
My Wife: “I’m just warning you, I haven’t shaved in a few days.”
Me: “Oh no! Anyway…”
I think “a few days” is the problem zone. It will be itchy and rough stubble by then (at least for me). After like a month it smooths back out. It could well be your wife telling you “this will be uncomfortable for both of us, at least wait a bit, or give me time to shave”.
Smooth as silk in one direction
Severe tire damage in the other
“If I didn’t want a sexy sasquatch, I wouldn’t have married my best friend.”
You really have to press your advantage to prevent them from thinking about that
Not all tumors are cancer…
Some are bread.
How, much?
He’s not comparing hair to cancer, he is demonstrating that just because something grows doesn’t mean it’s supposed to be there.
Women are supposed to have body hair.
Nobody is supposed to have body hair.
“supposed” is a bit of a tricky word for biology anyway, given that it implies intent. I guess if one is religious it works, but otherwise, itd be ascribing thought to evolutionary processes that dont seem to have a mechanism for that.
Wouldn’t it be abnormal for a mammal to not grow hair though?
Depends on the mammal I guess, but sure. But, theres a difference between something being what typically happens, and what is supposed to happen. Were you somehow in charge of designing mammals, and decided that hair should be a crucial aspect of them, then you could say that they are supposed to have hair. But, absent anyone doing this, them having hair is simply how they happen to be and equally as unintended as them not having it, regardless of how overwhelming the percentage that has it is. If anything, one could argue that if a person shaves their hair, or decides not while being given the option, then that person has actively taken charge of designing their own appearance, at least in that regard, and therefore the way they are “supposed” to look is the way they intend to make themselves look.
I don’t believe there are any truly hairless mammals?
I wouldn’t know if like naked mole rats or Sphinx cats or whatever are truly hairless or not, but tbh it doesn’t really matter for what I was trying to say.
I have never seen a dolphin, dugong or whale with hair
No. There’s plenty of mammals without hair.
Women are not those types of mammals.
He didn’t say otherwise, just pointed out the argument used was poor.
Who’s to say cancer isn’t supposed to grow?
It’s a bad comparison because women are supposed to grow body hair.
Again, who are you to say that? I could make the exact opposite argument and you would have to obey because I said so.
Women are mammals same as men. We grow hair on our bodies.
Says who? Your god?
Last time I checked, that was a pretty integral part of being a mammal.
Incorrect
It’s a defining characteristic of mammals.
How do we know women hair isn’t just cancer? 🤔
How do we know women aren’t just giant blobs of cancer?
Let’s watch sonic hedgehog
but did they watch sonic the hedgehog?
And what one? Hopefully the cool anime movie from the 90s.
I’m 60, and I realized recently, maybe in the past five years, that I’ve lost all the hair on my legs. I was a bit confused, I remember having hair on my legs, so I looked at some old pictures. Yep, I used to have hairy legs. I like having smooth legs, it’s nice. I still have all the hair on my head, so that’s good, too. Small consolation for having one foot in the grave, I suppose.
I wonder how old people have to be to get the “more at 6” capper. I know I use it a lot so my kids get it, but I’d bet most don’t.
I legit heard a news anchor say “and what it could mean for your weekend” on the TV at a bar recently, so they’re keeping it alive.
It wasn’t until my 30s when I grew out all the hair on my body for the first time. An entire lifetime of catering to the male gaze.
It was personally revolutionary to be honest.
I’m a trans man and I wasn’t able to feel comfortable wearing shorts without shaving until my early 30s either. The indoctrination is real!
Not true. My wife loves being hairless and does it for herself.
My personal experience doesn’t dictate what your wife should feel or do for her own body.
Your wife still grows hair. It’s ultimately her decision what to do with it, but her body grows hair naturally.
